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Sahatah
Wed Dec 07 2011, 04:57AM
Registered Member #446
Joined: Sat Oct 15 2011, 08:08AM
Posts: 33
Main Class: Dark Templar
Country: France
i post this on as a follow up to the discussion about dkp and pug raid started last night after t3.
i gave it some further thoughts and still cant see todays need/pass system as a fair one when 3/4 of the raid are bobs member, ill explain why and even propose an other possible loot system.

first: 3 absurds/unfair situations that can arise from the loss of dkp system while inviting a small group of people to fill up the raid occasionally, or even definitively.
1. lets say there are no healer among non bobs, or no rogues or no soldiers...or one that doesn't need anything/or no urn because hes full (yesterdays case for the DT, if im not mistaken): we are still in a FFA system, so dkp gets ignored for no good reason.
2. Lets say next week we are full in guild, people who looted yesterday didn't have any dkp removed, rather added ones, so they ll get as much chance to loot as the one who didn't loot yesterday and dkp will be in place, again...hows that.
3. No DKP : luck system: the same may loot over and over again, others get left behind.

ill take (of course) me as example, i bring my main, so i may be more touchy, and i still (really) need some piece of black dragon, ans some other trinket, yesterday i got neither urn nor shrine, competing against other bobs, dkp wise i should probably have had one of each...

another example: dizzy and/or silly pug looter, like the kind who need on a weapon to sell it for 50 silver...

so here is what i propose, not perfect, but more fair:
dice roll only for those that want to loot a particular item : IF a non bob win he gets it, if not, dkp decides which bob has it. AND if a pug people gets it, he ll pass on the next urn, gear, if it was a gear, shrine if it was a shrine etc.
for us dkp get removed as usual.

for me, even if such rule like" u looted once now pass", is announced at the begin, it doesnt prevent the 3 unfair situations i listed above to occur, i dont find it then satisfying. such system doesn't necessarily require someone to get track of everything, lets just count on the honesty and awareness of everyone.

so, in conclusion, sure im a loot whore, but i also came to t4 (almost no loot for soldiers) and t3.5 (work in progress) for the fun and the challenge, and i think t3 is also for many (as being farmed), an occasion to improve their toon, more so if its a main. i d probably wouldn't care so much if my main had no loot to look for in t3.

i know the pug situation is not a chosen one, but we can still try to maintain a fair loot distribution system.
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cynara
Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:08AM
Officer
Registered Member #15
Joined: Tue Sep 01 2009, 09:30AM
Posts: 765
Main Class: Guardian
Country: Slovenia
I was thinking along those lines as well -- if you want to combine a DKP system for BoB members with being fair to outsiders, then e.g. when one outsider and 3 BoB people want an item, the outsider should have a 25% probability to get it, whereas with 75% probability it should to to the person with the highest amount of DKP among those 3 BoB people that want it. Since the need/greed/pass mechanism can't be used for that, some other way of generating random numbers is needed, and rolling the dice (the ones you buy in the guild city tradepost) should indeed be an acceptable alternative, since (AFAIK) the game shows the results of dice rolls to everyone in the raid, and there's no way for a player to manipulate them (unlike e.g. in the case of random rolls on the bot where paranoid people can always claim that you have manipulated the bot's source code to make it biased in your guildies' favor).

Of course this system is still open to manipulation, e.g. someone from BoB could enlist the help of several other BoB people that have less DKP than him, and ask them to express an interest in the item that he wants for himself (even if they otherwise don't really care about that particular item), thereby decreasing the chance that the item would go to an outsider. This flaw is potentially important since it can be a reason for outsiders to view the system as unfair towards them.


[ Edited Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:09AM ]
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Drungly
Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:12AM
Registered Member #129
Joined: Sun Feb 07 2010, 03:17PM
Posts: 306
Main Class: Tempest of Set
Country: Netherlands
The raids with CRO are still in a starting phase and I think that a system will be considered if all goes well. Right now I think that any of the proposed solutions provide an unnecessary amount of extra work to sort these things out and it is prone to a lot of mistakes.

BoB doesn't have enough people to form their own raids right now, so any system that is based on this fact will fail. The needs of any individual in the guild right now are the least thing to worry about, since the alternative is no raid and no possibility to get loot. I think you should best be happy with the situation as it is now and trust the officers and guild leader to find a way out of this situation. Until everything is dandy again I think DKP will reclaim it's role.

So yeah, it might be unfair in terms of loot.. but right now the loot is the least of the guilds worries if you ask me. DKP is being 'ignored' for a perfectly fine reason, so I think you're making some wrong assumptions here.

Cyn; Dice rolls are only shown to the group members if I'm not mistaken.

[ Edited Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:13AM ]
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Sahatah
Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:37AM
Registered Member #446
Joined: Sat Oct 15 2011, 08:08AM
Posts: 33
Main Class: Dark Templar
Country: France
i was NOT talking about CRO raids, where 12 people of each guild are present, drungly, i was talking about t3, re read my post plz, and im NOT happy with the FFA loot system, some people dont sign up EVEN for t3, and who knows , i might just join them...
For me, DkP is being "ignored", as u say, for reasons that pertains to comfort and ease more than anything else,
as for my solution; the only "extra work" needed is giving numbers (instead of x) in the raid chat) then u look at names, then at dkp.
I think furthermore, that people who gets invited have all the reason to trust us, as we have to trust them, in fact we MUST, even with the FFA system.
so, no need to think too much, i think , about what claim about what dice result... i think.

ps: and for yr advise as to trust the officers and be happy with what i have, man, were u a soviet commissar in a past life? "dont worry poor hungry farmers, the partys taking care of yr problems..."

[ Edited Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:47AM ]
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Drungly
Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:50AM
Registered Member #129
Joined: Sun Feb 07 2010, 03:17PM
Posts: 306
Main Class: Tempest of Set
Country: Netherlands
Well I mentioned CRO yes, but it applies to any situation when it's not a full guild raid. I don't think there's a fair system when having PUG's in the raid other then the need/greed/pass system. The problem with any system besides that is the fact that you will always have some people who don't find such an alternative system fair. That's why DKP was invented in the first place. Another problem is that the raid leader will be the one doing the work you suggested; this is extra work while raid leading with PUG's is already a dreadful task. Don't get me wrong however, I agree that it's unfair as it is now and I do agree with you that it would be nice to have a system for this. I just don't see how any system will work in this, because you can't trust random people just like that (at least I wouldn't). I think the need/pass system is a negative side effect of having to fill the raid with random people. Thinking from a raid leader perspective I don't see it working.

Besides this I am interested in ideas however and I think it's good to have a discussion with people venting some ideas.

PS: A warning up front; I might sound offensive in my post but I do not mean to be offensive in any way against anybody. The reason I'm giving this warning is because I fully realize that I look like I'm being offensive, while I'm not intending to be so

[ Edited Wed Dec 07 2011, 05:55AM ]
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Akha
Wed Dec 07 2011, 06:00AM
Evil Puppy
Registered Member #13
Joined: Tue Sep 01 2009, 08:58AM
Location: Hell
Posts: 738
Main Class: Necromancer
Country: Czech Republic
You are offensive and you intend to be offensive, quit lying
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Drungly
Wed Dec 07 2011, 06:07AM
Registered Member #129
Joined: Sun Feb 07 2010, 03:17PM
Posts: 306
Main Class: Tempest of Set
Country: Netherlands
Akha wrote ...

You are offensive and you intend to be offensive, quit lying


I'm more interested in your opinion about Sahatah's suggestions
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Akha
Wed Dec 07 2011, 06:25AM
Evil Puppy
Registered Member #13
Joined: Tue Sep 01 2009, 08:58AM
Location: Hell
Posts: 738
Main Class: Necromancer
Country: Czech Republic
I am interested only in filling up the raids and the raid performance and progress.

I was glad we had a good raid yesterday though there were 4 ppl from Destiny. Who got what I don't care about.
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Sahatah
Wed Dec 07 2011, 06:36AM
Registered Member #446
Joined: Sat Oct 15 2011, 08:08AM
Posts: 33
Main Class: Dark Templar
Country: France
i think this thread will have a huge success, dunno why....first drung tells me theres no point, then a raid leader who says he doesn't care..feeling optimist. well akha i do care about those thing, i dont know why we couldnt care about the other ones too.
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Akha
Wed Dec 07 2011, 06:38AM
Evil Puppy
Registered Member #13
Joined: Tue Sep 01 2009, 08:58AM
Location: Hell
Posts: 738
Main Class: Necromancer
Country: Czech Republic
I am not saying people shouldn't care or that your opinion is irrelevant, I am speaking only for myself and yes, I do not care about such things.
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